Talk:Joe Johnson (snooker player)

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Typo?

Resolved

 – Yes, it was an error.

The old infobox listed the name as "John Johnson", although neither the text nor the title suggests this is his name. Was that a typo, or is his real name "John", but everyone calls him "Joe"? I used "Joe Johnson" in the new box. Abigail 20:18, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

My typo, I think. --Auximines 08:00, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

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Season format

Hello, there appears to be different season formats in the article, would be good to standardise. Uses 2020–01, 2020–2021, 2020/21 and 2020/2021 formats at different points in article - I would go with the 2020–01 format as per football articles, but may be different for snooker. Keith D (talk) 18:43, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I've made some edits, so hopefully there is consistency in the body text. The table headings and notes are standard in these articles (which doesn't mean they can't be changed). Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:49, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Joe Johnson (snooker player)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MaxnaCarta (talk · contribs) 05:46, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

General comments

Lead

• Added "The British"
• Removed hyphen from "quarterfinals"
• Linked English to England

Early life

• two commas added
• Johnson was National to Johnson was the National
• and three times Yorkshire Champion changed to and a three-time Yorkshire Champion

Early years

• Capitalised championship
• Hyphen to 100-break added
• Removed comma
• Hyphen to "last-16" added

1982

• Fixed spelling of opening
• Johnson recorded 10–0 whitewash changed to Johnson recorded a 10–0 whitewash

Thanks for those, MaxnaCarta. MOS:SNOOKER (yes, there is one!) says that there should be a hyphen in quarter-finals, so am I OK to amend those? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:12, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll put the hyphens back, sorry for that! — MaxnaCarta  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 02:36, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I've done another copyedit, replacing those hyphens and adding some commas. Advantage was also misspelled so I fixed that. Other than those, this now meets the core criteria for GA and so I will pass. — MaxnaCarta  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 02:41, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Spot Checks

• [20] - I mean, not quite. It does not confirm he was inside the 1983 masters; rather, the reference confirms he was not within the eight-player group. However, this is not a controversial fact. The linked article confirms he was within the 1983 masters, so this is fine.

• I've added a source (and tweaked the text from "eight" to "six"). I've also wikilinked sources where I could, and added a few extra clipppings. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:13, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

• [32a] - Y
• [32b] - Y
• [23] - Y
• [42c] - Y (Impressive, the article used the exact adjective of "attacking", I love this source-text integrity
• [48a] - Y
• [52b] - Y
• [86] - Y
• [87] - Y

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

FAC notes

I was going to post these on the FAC, but it's been withdrawn, so I might as well post them here in case they're useful.

• The "losing to" parentheses in the first paragraph of the lead are a little distracting. I think they can be justified for the finals, but I would suggest dropping the one for the semi-final, and both the parenthetical comments in the third paragraph of the lead. I would lead in the mention of Dennis Taylor since in a way the first-round loss is more notable than the semi-final losses.
• "who later taught his stepson snooker, when Johnson was four": "later" is redundant with "when Johnson was four".
• I started reading through the "Professional career" section, and then decided to go and read some other snooker FAs to see how they handle run-of-the-mill tournament reporting. I looked at Terry Griffiths, John Pulman, and Cliff Thorburn, and generally those articles only give round-by-round results when there's something interesting to say about the tournament. For example, in Terry Griffiths, the account of the 1979 World Championship gives all the details because it's his first tournament (and championship) win. For the 1979 Canadian Open Griffith's article only says he lost in the final. The extended discussion of his loss at the 1980 World Championship is interesting because it's the first example of the Crucible curse. In Johnson's article, most of the "Early years" descriptions have no particular interest; it's simply a listing of wins and whatever loss ended his tournament. I think these descriptions should be much abbreviated: the reader can click through to the individual tournament articles if they want to know the round-by-round information. By contrast I think the account you give of Johnson defeating Davis in 1986 is fine; more detail is justified for the most important win of Johnson's career, and there are interesting factoids distributed through the account. (Though I don't think you need to say who he lost to at the 1985 Matchroom Trophy or1986 Mercantile Credit Classic.) Skimming the tournament descriptions later in the article, those look OK -- I think it's just the "Early years" section and to a lesser degree the "1982-1985" section that need attention.
• "Once again his opponent in the final was Davis, who defeated him." Suggest cutting "who defeated him"; the whole next paragraph gives that information.
• "outside the top 16 after five years in that group": suggest "for the first time in five years".
• "Johnson had heart and eye problems during the 1990s, although he continued to play in qualifying events." Why say "qualifying events"? It sounds from the surrounding narrative as if he continued to play in tournaments generally.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:59, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for this, Mike Christie. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:26, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Review comments

Comments FAO User:BennyOnTheLoose

• Too many Johnsons throughout, where pronoun "he" could be used – I can remedy this in my copyedit.
• I tend to think it's best to give a player's name in full the first time it appears in a new section, then just surname if it appears again in same section. Again, I can incorporate changes in my copyedit if you agree. This applies to Tony Knowles (x3), Terry Griffiths (x3), Cliff Wilson (x3), Cliff Thorburn, Steve Davis (x2), Stephen Hendry, Jimmy White, Tony Meo (x3), Mike Hallett (x3), Kirk Stevens, Ian Williamson, Bill Werbeniuk, Ray Edmonds, Murdo MacLeod, Graham Miles, John Spencer and Warren King. Strangely, Eddie Charlton, Matt Gibson, Willie Thorne are inconsistent with this.

• Sounds good to me. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Lead

• Would it be better to link English to English people rather than the country England?

• I think this is an MOS:OVERLINK actually ("major examples of the following categories should generally not be linked: Countries (e.g., Brazil/Brazilian..") BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• "snooker commentator for Eurosport" – do we need to mention Eurosport here? It might also appear that he was a "snooker player and snooker commentator" for Eurosport, so there's a semantics issue here.

• No and it should be clearer that former professional player but current commentator. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• Do we need to mention who he lost to in the first paragraph? It sort of detracts from the subject of the article (Joe!).

• Makes sense to change it. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• Need to link ranking final at first mention.

Early life and amateur career

• "His mother was named Margaret, and his father" may be better as "His mother's name was Margaret, and his father"
• Second sentence sounds a bit awkward – maybe try this... "Margaret's second husband was Ken Johnson, who taught his stepson Joe how to play snooker from the age of four."

• Amended per the two points above.

• Was Margaret married to Farooq or were they just in a relationship? If the latter, we can't say "second husband".

• Amended.

• It might be more informative to link TUC, i.e. at the TUC Club in Middlesbrough
• Could link motor mechanic.

• Amended per the two points above.

Early years

• "by 9 frames to 3" is inconsistent with other scorelines, so it would be best as "Johnson lost his opening match at the 1979 UK Championship to Bill Werbeniuk, 3–9."

• Amended.

1985–86 season: World champion

• Suggested wording change: "Johnson had also never won a match at the Crucible Theatre, and was rated a 150–1 outsider" > "Having never won a match at the Crucible Theatre, Johnson was rated a 150–1 outsider..."
• "where he lost 4–5 to Thorburn" should probably also be in brackets to match previous aside about Neal Foulds.
• bookmakers' odds of 2/9 and 5/1 are inconsistent with 150–1 style used previously.

• Amended per the three points above.

• Are you referring to Gordon Burn's book Pocket Money? Should probably state that.

• Yes, it is mentioned in the 1986 edition. so I added in that year, but the page ref is to the 2008 edition. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Post-World Championship win

• "hoping merely" > "simply hoping" ?
• "the teenaged Stephen Hendry" > "the 18-year-old Stephen Hendry" might be clearer, more specific, if the source allows it.

• Amended per the two points above.

Later career

• "after five years in that group" sounds a bit odd, maybe change to "for the first time in five years"
• Suggested wording change: "won a four-player round-robin event, the 1991 Nescafe Extra Challenge" > "won the 1991 Nescafe Extra Challenge, which was a ..."
• Suggested wording change: "Johnson had heart and eye problems during the 1990s, although he continued to play" > "Despite having heart and eye problems during the 1990s, Johnson continued to play..."

• Amended per the three points above.

• "in February 2004" – surely this should be "in April 2004" !?

• Amended to mention that it was the qualifying competition.

• "the oldest player on the professional snooker circuit" – are we talking about the oldest ever or just the oldest at that point?

• Oldest active professional at that point. Fred Davis was older (79, I think) when he retired from snooker.

Seniors events

• This subsection shouldn't be inside Professional career section because it was after he retired.
• Suggested wording change: "(which was used to determine the winner if each player won one of two frames)" > "used as a tiebreaker in the event of each player winning one of two frames" (and doesn't need to be in brackets).

• Amended per the two points above.

Legacy

• Again, this shouldn't be inside Professional career section because it was after he retired. Maybe combine Seniors events and Legacy subsections into "Post-retirement" or similar?

• Pending; will see if "Legacy" can be expanded.

• State that Everton's 2012 book is called Black Farce and Cue Ball Wizards.
• Suggested wording change: "He found the pressures of World Championship fame difficult, and was" > "Johnson found it difficult to deal with the pressures of WC fame, and he was..."
• What do you mean by 'poorly served'?

• Not enough detail to clarify this, so I removed it.

• Suggested wording change: that "it will be for ... remembered". > "that Johnson would always be remembered for "his shot-making, ... that defined his career."
• "In their book about world champions" > "In their 2005 book about snooker world champions"

• amended per the two points above.

Bibliography

• I think Everton was editor (not author) of "Snooker: The Records".

No other authors are listed, and lots of the text is re-used from Snooker Scene and Everton's other books, as is common for his output. I had never noticed before today, but on one of the front pages there is actually a credit for "Editor: Beatrice Frei". The book is copyrighted to Everton and Guiness Superlatives. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Rodney Baggins (talk) 18:15, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Rodney Baggins. I'm happy with all of the suggestions. I'll start with the items where I need to refer back to sources. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)